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Post by funkdiggity on Aug 10, 2009 5:32:01 GMT -5
So I'm a drummer, mostly. Nine times out of ten this means the guitar and bass players are waiting on me to fire off od. Normally this isn't a big deal. But occasionally I have to hold off, even when everyone is ready, because there's a part of a song coming up where things slow down considerably for most of the band. Which means if I use od we won't score as much points. An example of this would be that one chorus in Give It Away where only the drummer and singer are playing.
There used to only be a few songs where stuff like this occured. But we have more than 700 songs now. And quite a few of them have sections where the amount of notes ebbs and flows. Its getting harder to mentally keep track of whether or not THIS drum fill on THIS particular song is the one that I need to wait on because an instrument I'm not even playing has nothing to do.
On top of that, hmx is getting tricky with their group od charting. Don't believe me? Go grab a band and play some older songs. They used to chart the od activation drum fills around gaps in the songs. On more recent dlc they often place the fills right before the gap, just to trip you up (See the already mentioned Give It Away, and Sex On Fire for good examples).
A few questions:
1-Do any other drummers notice this? (I imagine this is more of a problem for drummers with excessive amounts of dlc, as they obviously have more to remember. So not every one is going to spot it)
2-Do you even care, or do you just play the song how you normally would?
3-Do any people who don't play drums care when the drummer activates at the wrong time? Occasionally I'll get some well meaning random rock band player trying to explain to me that I should have handled a particular od differently, and out loud I'm polite and say "Thanks for the tip." But in my head Im thinking "Do you really expect me to keep track of what every instrument is doing at all times in almost a thousand songs? Because that's the only way Im going to know off hand that I should wait three fills before activating od for the next to last time on Random DLC Song 563.
Im not really looking for tips here, just to rant/see if this annoys anyone else ;D
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Post by heavymetalhead on Aug 10, 2009 7:53:40 GMT -5
yes youre totally right. when i drum for a band and were trying to get a good score, i have to pay attention, or else we waste od. its a lot of stress, cuz then your bandmates are probably thinkin, 'whyd he use it there?'. i have a small attention span, so i hate having to pay attention to when to use it. and with all the dlc how can u expect one person to run the overdrive for the band. but if you play a song sightread, then redo it, you should be able to tell when to use od the second time around.
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Post by bigfish on Aug 10, 2009 14:30:25 GMT -5
this is kind of funny. i'm sure you've noticed that on occasion your bassist or guitarist will see your overdrive lanes come up and activate our OD early on a lane that you knew you were skipping, only we didn't realize. It is difficult to remember exactly where a lot of those empty spots are.
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Post by greyghost88 on Aug 10, 2009 14:48:39 GMT -5
and alot of guitar players will activate theirs when you do a fill but not hit the crash, so when I know iam gonna skip I wont hit anything on the fill.
and another song on drums when the slow part comes up with everybody having full od is who are you.
but if iam going for score with the band usually everyone knows when to hit it, cause we have all played together for so long. if its random ppl I just get a half and keep it moving, I think iam more into note streaks and % hit then score when iam with randoms
now the real question is when should the singer do theirs with everyone else or the solo way so you don't waste od, or does it depend on the song but like you said with 700 songs it is hard to remember,
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tackhead311
artist formally known as gusano311
lets go yankees![Mo0:1]
Posts: 867
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Post by tackhead311 on Aug 10, 2009 14:56:03 GMT -5
i try to go by the singer, then bass, then drums. unless i have a huge sustained and know theres a od rite away .
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Post by bigfish on Aug 10, 2009 16:04:16 GMT -5
I could be wrong about this, and correct me if i am, but i think the best way to shoot for score is this: Singer ALWAYS deploys in situations that are most beneficial to him. Right before long stretches of short phrases. Their opportunities for collecting OD and deploying OD are much less frequent, but if they are maintaining their streak have the best opportunity to score points. Guitarist and Bassist should primarily follow singer to maximize the singers OD. Drummers do their best to activate with everyone else to further maximize points. Also keep in mind, that this is generally the best way to go, and only really applies if everyone has pretty much mastered the song already. There will always be songs that have sparse vocals, but sections of fast strum guitar chords that might be better suited full band activation. Here is some math to consider Vox earns 4000 per phrase(regardless of phrase length) at 4x multiplier. That is 32,000 per phrase at 8x full band multiplier. Guitar would have to play 40 single notes or 20 chords at full band multiplier during that same length of phrase to meet 32,000 Bass would have to play 27 notes at full band multiplier to meet 32,000 Drums would have to hit 40 individual notes at full multiplier to reach 32,000 So on some occasions it may be beneficial to follow another band member, but not often. In my opinion, competing for the #1 score on any given song at this point is kind of pointless. We have nearly 800 songs now. Why would I want to play the same one over and over and over? I do enjoy competing with my previous scores, whether it be solo or in full band play. In most cases the top few scores for any given song are posted by those who have figured out optimal full band OD paths(or looked them up on the internet) AND can play their instruments to 100% accuracy, AND are experts at point squeezing. That's just not worth the time investment in my opinion. When I play, I follow the drummer when it feels appropriate, or the singer when it feels appropriate. With songs that i know there are good vocal scoring opportunities i will try to exclusively follow the singer. I almost never follow my guitarist. If he deploys solo, I can only assume it's because... A) He has a tough part coming up B) He has full OD and needs to burn it before he gets another phrase, in which case i wait until both the drummer and I can join in. C) He turned his guitar perpendicular to his body and is banging it like a dirty whore.... again.  |
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Post by maarten on Aug 11, 2009 2:24:35 GMT -5
the thing i hate most is when u wanna use ur od with your vocalist and it is 3/4 full.. u think u can hold it through before the next bonus comes up but then it all of a sudden pops up and bot the bassist and guitarst (and me) waisted 1/4 of our od:s, or when u think ur happy about your activation and both the guitarist or bassist don't activate because they think they know better!!! (that REALLY PISSES ME OFF!) but the tactic my band uses is just follow the singer as much as you can and try to get used to her activation timing, which is very hard to do because it's soo damn random (luxe  ) |
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Post by funkdiggity on Aug 11, 2009 3:43:47 GMT -5
^ In theory at least my band uses the "try-to-follow-the-singer" tactic too, but in practice its considerably muddier. You saw, they both chimed in, they really just follow whoever, whenever  The thing where one guy holds off from activating always annoys me too. Do the math. Even if I activated at a bad time, an 8 or 6x multiplier, even at an inopportune time, is going to net the band way more points than one guy waiting to fire what will end up being a 2x multiplier at a moment that's good for him. |
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Post by funkdiggity on Aug 11, 2009 3:50:52 GMT -5
and alot of guitar players will activate theirs when you do a fill but not hit the crash, so when I know iam gonna skip I wont hit anything on the fill. If Im intentionally skipping an activation, and not just skipping it bc my band isnt ready to deploy, then I'll make sure not to hit anything. But sometimes I don't know if im going to activate until towards the end of the phrase where i can at least get a glimpse of what the rest of the band is going to do, in which case I hit enough of the fill to open up the crash. Which causes confusion occasionally, Im sure lol |
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Post by bigfish on Aug 11, 2009 11:05:59 GMT -5
In the end, this is all very trial and error and what might work well in one song might not work well in another. To really maximize, you'd have to play the song over and over to figure out exactly what you need to do. sometimes i might make what looks like a stupid decision as part of that trial and error, so it might not be a good idea to get unnecessarily angry at someone because "they think they know better". Because apparently none of us actually do know better.
For instance, I was playing with Funk, Tack and BC the other day, and if i remember right the song was Sex Type Thing, there was an instance where drums, guitar and bass were all half full. It was near the beginning of the verse if i remember right, possibly a little later, since there are 2 verses before chorus in this one. Drummer deploys, guitar follows suit. I held, remembering that the chorus is much heavier for singers, and a little heavier for guitar and bass as well.
I don't really remember at this point how it worked out, but i remember thinking that they probably think i'm a dick.
My thought process though was that worst case scenario...
1) bass at start of chorus at 100% OD, with the potential to extend once or twice.
2) vox at start of chorus 50-75% OD, might be able to extend once
3) drums and guitar might be at 50%, but probably at 25% and not be able to deploy with bass and singer. but likely to earn and deploy shortly after, resulting in roughly...
Bass and vox earning 4x multiplier for first half of chorus. bass, guitar and drums earning 6x multiplier 2nd half of chorus, and maybe some 8x multiplier overlap in between.
The reality of it was probably something less than that. More like I had to deploy before the chorus so as not to waste an upcoming OD phrase as i was already full. The singer might have missed optimal deployment by a couple phrases coming in later than expected. the guitar came in with singer and the drummer had to wait for their OD lane. I think I was the first one to deploy and the last one to stop burning. Hahahaha. I don't think the end result was bad by any means, but was it any better than me just deploying with everyone else in the verse? Or would it have been better if we all would have waited? Hell, I don't know. I threw out my Trig calculator after i graduated and realized it had absolutely no real world applications.
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tackhead311
artist formally known as gusano311
lets go yankees![Mo0:1]
Posts: 867
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Post by tackhead311 on Aug 11, 2009 11:17:44 GMT -5
i knew you where experimenting ! its always all good with me!
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Post by funkdiggity on Aug 12, 2009 3:03:10 GMT -5
Nah, I knew you were experimenting too. I was genuinely curious to see how that one was going to work out. I figured either you were a genius and we'd smash our old score, or you were dumb and we wouldnt even gold one of the easiest songs ever lol. I feel like Ive played with you and Ron long enough to know when there's a reason for what youre doing and when you're just putzing around ;D
Getting angry over what maarten is talking about is an overstatement, though it is annoying. If the band isn't going to follow the drummer then itd be nice to let the drummer know, so he/she a) can be free to try some stuff out too, and b) doesn't have to concentrate as much on coordinating everybody's od.
Also Id add that there's a difference between holding off on od because you think you can spread it out for everyone's benefit, particularly the singer, and just holding off on od because you want to save it for that part of the song where you get to play some wicked shredding, even if the rest of the band isn't doing much at that point.
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luxe
You're my guitar hero[Mo0:4]
Posts: 214
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Post by luxe on Aug 12, 2009 12:51:30 GMT -5
Usually what I'm doing is watching for unison bonuses. The singer will often get an activation window that closes just before the drummer's green activation crash comes up, so I'll activate there, unless I know that the next section is going to be slow or tambourine taps or something. Sometimes I can't activate because the singer will get OD windows that close earlier than they look so you can easily miss your chance, and this probably looks very random to the rest of the band  Going strictly by following the best path for the singer as if they were playing solo would not be the best plan for a lot of songs because the singer can get a lot of short phrases but no one else has much to do. It would be an ok place to start, but you might have to play through the song a couple of times and tweak your activations to use them in better spots. Or look at the charts and try to figure it out in advance, but who really has time for that! To answer funk's question - no I never care if someone activates at let's say not the best time. First of all if we're sight reading you're not always going to know, and secondly, you might have a reason for trying something different, and third it's a game... It's not like you left a buch of clamps or a jelly donut in someone's chest cavity during surgery, no one's gonna die because you did or didn't fire of your star power at a certain time. |
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Post by bigfish on Aug 12, 2009 13:44:48 GMT -5
no one's gonna die because you did or didn't fire of your star power at a certain time. That's what she said ;D |
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Post by maarten on Aug 13, 2009 1:31:01 GMT -5
HAHAHA nice!
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